Question of Interpretation

Donavan said...
Mathew 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place”. Jesus clearly states his audience - “you” the people he was talking to.Jesus clearly states his idea –the timing of all the things that will take place before that generation dies.Anti Christian apologists use this verse more than any other in the Bible to show that Jesus was a false prophet, in-fact Bertrand Russell wrote a book entitled –“Why I’m Not a Christian” with Mat 24:34 as its centerpiece. The reason why this book was probably the most successful piece of popular atheology in history was because the weight of it’s logical merits.The dispensational (most common end times view) argues that Jesus is really not speaking to his contemporary audience but was actually speaking to people thousands of years in the future, and that he really meant (that) generation instead of (this) generation as the text says. This should test every Christians interpretive foundations.The real question is what right do we have not to believe exactly what Jesus said according to context and the other texts of the olivet discourse witch say the same thing. All the events Jesus said would take place previous to verse 34 famines, earthquakes preaching the gospel to all the world, false prophets etc. did take place within that generation (40 years).I’m keeping this post very, very, short, I’m curious about the groups thoughts on the interpretive issues I’ve raised.

January 22, 2008 1:11 AM
Nathan Family said...
Without going into too much detail, I think it's clear that Jesus' prophecy did in fact prove to be true. This may sound like heresy to some. If so, so be it. But if we take in all the recorded sayings and actions of Jesus within the context of a 1st Century Jewish prophet (leaving aside his Messiahship and Deity for the moment) speaking to and acting within a primarily 1st Century Jewish audience, these prophecies can make much more sense. It is very Jewish of him to vest huge historical events with their proper theological import. So some of the things Jesus says about the end of the world for example, in several cases, are much more likely to refer to the destruction of the Temple - which did in fact happen within a generation (the Jewish rebellion of 66-70 A.D.). This, to a Jew of the 1st Century, was the end of the world. Much like my becoming a Christian, to my Jewish mother and father, was an "earth shattering" event. Okay, is anyone ready to excommunicate me yet?

January 22, 2008 11:37 PM
Monique.N said...
Donavan,You DID say that you had something heavy to add to the discussion on the table! Nothing simple, like what does God say about body piercings or tattoos and such?! Well, I do agree with you about the three keys to Biblical (or any literature for that matter) interpretation: context, context, context. With the New Testament in particular, there are also terms which relate to Old Testament terms, and researching the richness of those earlier uses informs the understanding of them as they are used in the New Testament. I'm also aware that Old Testament prophecies often had 'near fulfillment' that also foreshadowed 'long term fulfillment' in later generations. I can see that I will have to do research to bring any comments of substance to the question you have placed on the table.And no, Corey, I don't know of anyone who is ready to excommunicate you, at least not yet. :o) However, I wonder if the earth-shattering destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple can actually be fully equated with "the end of the world" or "the day of the Lord?" Are you possibly suggesting that it was a near fulfillment that foreshadowed a later fulfillment as well?I'm off to do some study....! Any one else want to add their two cents?!

January 25, 2008 3:49 PM
Nathan Family said...
To be more direct, I think what I'm saying is that there seems to be a tendency when we look at passages such as Matt. 24, its parallels such as Mark 13 or the OT passages it echoes such as Daniel 7, is to think that the "orthodox" point of view interprets such passages as pointing to the end of the space-time universe. Or we might think that some of the imagery used must be taken at face value if we have chosen to accept the Bible as authoritative. For example, I'm honestly nervous about the fact that I have doubts about an actual giant Jesus coming down on an actual cloud, etc. Maybe my nervousness has more to do with the fact that I'm Jewish: "If you're not suffering, you're not trying." But somehow the tradition into which I was born as a Christian has me doubting the sincerity of my faith and even my salvation if I happen to think this is history/prophecy vested with its theological significance as opposed to a more bald (would it be nicer to say "straight forward"?) interpretation of such passages.
January 26, 2008 11:58 AM

Donavan said...
Monique, interesting that you mentioned the temple being equated with the end of the world, the better Bible translations translate Mathew 24:3 this way: “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” World is a good example of a bad translation. It’s easy to see how the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (which took 42 months by the way) would to the Jewish mind mean the end of an age.John MacArthur also holds that there is a near and far fulfillment to these prophecies, the problem with that idea is that it creates huge problems like the future 3rd rebuilt temple (it’s nowhere in the Bible) but it must be rebuilt because of the fact the Dispensational system must have reinstituted animal sacrifices again, even though Hebrews 10:18 says “there is no longer any sacrifice for sin”. Jesus was the once and for all sacrifice. My favorite near / far argument answer is about the Number of the Beast 666, this has an extremely easy answer, it is Nero. Rev 13:8 nrwn qsr (Neron Kesar without the vowels because Hebrew doesn’t use them) is Neros name transliterated into Hebrew and since Hebrew letters also stand for numbers it comes out 666, an interesting side note to this is that the oldest surviving copy of the Greek New Testament says that the number of the Beast is 616, why, well that’s because like Hebrew Greek also gives letters numerical values and Neron Kesar comes out to 616. Also John in Rev. 17:10 “They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while”. John is clearly meaning Nero as the King who now is, Nero was the sixth emperor (Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, then the Next emperor was Galba, he only reigned for 7 months.)
January 26, 2008 11:01 PM

Nathan Family said...
Donovan, I'm having a hard time following your argument. I'm constantly on my toes either in person or in writing as I'm not sure if I'm being interrogated, asked a leading question or just lead into a trap. Perhaps, I'm not sophistacated enough to follow your arguments; but some of them feel like arguments purely for the sake of argument. Perhaps that's merely my own sense of defensiveness. Either way, I'm not really following your them other than to recognize them as disparate pieces of evidence, not necessarily thread together except in that they give me the sense that they're all meant to prove your conversation partner wrong.Okay, all that said, I'm partly hoping that no one else is reading this because I suspect that, especially in print, I'm not looking like the best example of agape love that Brad's exhorted us to practice in all things.
January 26, 2008 11:20 PM

Donavan said...

Nathan, you are right in that my arguments are leading, I’ve been trying to show obvious Biblical examples of dispensational eschatology (end times) errors. In my Christian life I have grown the most when other people have challenged my beliefs, our theology group by definition are people who want to grow in the knowledge of God. When challenges to subjects like dispensationalism are brought up they test some very deeply held beliefs, some say that two thirds of the Bible speaks of eschatology.

To me Jesus presiding over thousands of bloody animal sacrifices, which is what dispensationalism argues for, sickens me, what could marginalize what Jesus did on the cross more than this. Dispensationalism is the best example of how an extremely new idea (it was started around 1830) has shaped the modern church with a very pessimistic victim mentality, the modern church has only given lip service to ideas such as Christians being more than conquerors, the gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church, and the inspiration to actually carry out the great commission.

Most theological systems say they interpret the Bible literally, but the definition of literal is what creates new interpretive systems. Most dispensationalist Bible interpreters use a normal (newspaper reading) view of eschatological passages in the Bible, I would submit that this is an incorrect view of literal. “Sensus Literalis” (Latin) means to interpret the Bible in the sense it was meant to be taken, If we read in the newspaper that the Patriots killed the Giants in the Superbowl none of us would think that the Patriots football team somehow put to death the Giants football team. Then why do dispensational teachers use wooden, newspaper literalism concerning eschatology? We as Christians should interpret the Bible with the help of the Holly Spirit not with a filter of an end times system such as dispensationalism.

I hope I don’t seem to harsh in my posts but Nathan was exactly right in that my arguments have been leading and interrogating, so I hope I’ve made my motives a little more clear.

Donavan

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