Okay, I'm just fishing here. Anyone wanna bite? Maybe we should send an invitation to as many friends as possible. I've got a bunch of things I'd like to hash out from politics to eschatology. It'd be great if we got a robust dialogue running here but I suspect we need more traffic.
For now, here's a juicy tidbit: Obama's speech on faith-based initiatives. Enjoy...
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/07/obamas-faith-based-action-spee.html
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- up close and personal encounters with Divine Light - a blogspot for participants in Grace's Theological Discussion Group, eager to wrestle with divine truth and its implication in our lives. We can enjoy a continuing virtual dialog online - you're invited to post new topics anytime.
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Anyone interested in organizing or hosting another face-to-face discussion?
Post your proposal for a time and place on this site and we'll see if we can get together in person. Until then, feel free to post discussion topics here.
4 comments:
Okay, Mr. Fisherman, I'll bite - in relation to both postings about Obama.
I know a person's relationship with God is personal as Sen. Obama says, but from a few of his speeches (I followed multiple links!) He seems to present himself as a man who joined Christianity for an anchor but I wondered if he has truly come face to face with Almighty God in a life-changing, heart submitting, way. One can hang around Believers, join in their programs, and even "walk the aisle" but if one never has a broken heart over one's lack of holiness and humbly ask for the Master's grace, you might have joined a "community" but missed the Kingdom. I would hope, for his sake, that he has genuinely met Jesus and is being transformed by Him.
Here's a question: Should I only vote for an elected official if they are also a Believer? I don't think so. The task of gov officials is to govern and provide security for their citizens. As a Believer, the values God communicated in Scripture are (hopefully, through study) my values and I look for wise leaders who share those values so they will govern in a way that is just and pursues righteousness...for the betterment of the community. Would I love to vote for a modern-day William Wilberforce who was overwhelmed by Almighty God and longed to please him in all that he did personally and legislatively for the cause of righteousness in British society in the 1800's? You bet! Can I vote for someone who doesn't claim to be in relationship with Jesus, yet his /her policies and proposals line up with my moral, economic, and judicial values? Yes. Vote and PRAY...that's what I do. As much as I might do my homework to be informed when I place my vote, I always pray that God, who knows what is best for our country, will put in place those people who will ultimately serve His purpose (whether they know it or not).
Regarding the faith-based intiatives speech - did you catch the stipulation that f-b groups who take federal funds cannot "proselytize" using those funds? Those who want federal monies to do their community work are free to do their charitable part, but don't try to tell anyone about the amazing Father whose love has changed you and compels you to help others in His name. I understand that the stipulation is an important requirement to keep the gov from appearing to be establishing one particular faith. However, those who are moved to action because of a relationship with Almighty God, for the joy of sharing Him with others, do not take public funds. As far as I know, organizations like Samaratin's Purse, World Vision, Children's Hunger Fund, Prison Fellowship, even Focus on the Family are all supported by private donations and do their work without gov money.
Am I on your hook now, Mr. Fisherman?
Oh, yes. Thanks for indulging me. A few questions that come immediately to mind.
- I'm not exactly sure how to put the question, but there's something about the way you talked about the Kingdom and the community that made think, "The Kingdom is the community." It's not all it is. But it is the (or at least a) vessel through which God is doing his work. Not to take away the necessity and importance of a "personal relationship" as we've come to think of it. But I think we go to the extent with that thought that it's at the expense of the idea of the radical community that Jesus called us into. John 13 sums it up quite well.
- Why is it that we've tended to question Obama's faith? I never heard a peep when Bush did something even more dangerous, in my opinion from a Christian standpoint. He played around with Scripture to make America sound like it was the light, it was the hope while he was quoting directly from John 1. Check out his speech on the 1st anniversary of 9/11 given on 9/11/02. He closes with a quote that I find downright scary in how unwieldy and brazen it is, how subtle and manipulative it can be in getting us well-meaning Christians awful confused about what our Hope is and where the dividing lines should be - whether we're Americans first and Christians second. Or even worse, are we the kinds of folks who have a particular political bent (or any other kind of agenda) and then back Scripture into that ungodly agenda? I've seen that done way too much.
- Proselytizing - The program isn't saying the organizations shouldn't proselytize. It's also not coercing organizations to take money. But if money is taken for a particular project, it shouldn't include proselytization. Frankly, I don't know how that can be strictly interpreted of enforced. But I do know that if it's a Mosque or a New Age organization taking money from the government for a particular program, I don't want them using that money to proselytize. Know what I mean?
That's probably enough to get me in trouble, huh?
To clarify, I agree with you that the Kingdom is community - with brothers and sisters and God as our Father. In my comment, I was using the term "community" in that paragraph like "joining the country club." There are unfortunately, many who join a church as a faith community, but never actually get right with the Master. Lots of people name the name of Jesus, call Him "Lord, Lord" but never really know Him. Do you know what I mean? So just joining a church as your faith community of choice doesn't necessarily mean one has submitted to the Sovereign God.
One possible reason that we tend to question Sen. Obama's faith may relate to Jesus' wise guidance "by their fruit you shall know them." We are not to be hypocritical judges, but we can evaluate the fruit in one's life. If Obama has a personal relationship with the Creator, it is hard to fathom how he can be so radically in support of allowing the taking of human life in it's pre-born state, as well as newborns (did not support a measure to protect aborted babies who survived abortions). The sanctity of human life is so dear to the Father's heart and should be to His disciples. I've heard many question the importance of the abortion issue in comparison to economics, military and other issues. But one's position on the sanctity of human life is SOOOOOOO fundamental to one's world view.
I see what you’re saying about the Kingdom/community thing. And BTW, thanks for continuing to indulge me. I do think a lot of people "join the country club," learn the lingo and everything, only to use the very community they've tapped into. That's what I was talking about in reference to Bush's 9/11/02 speech. Don't get me wrong, I heard Hillary Clinton lamely try to use Scripture to make a certain point at a rally in West Virginia toward the end of the primaries. I just think we tend to give more Republicans a free pass because they at least talk about homosexuality and abortion the way we think they should. But to my original point, I just wonder if we'd be so scrutinizing about whether Obama was a Christian or not if he was a Republican candidate.
Funny thing about Obama’s record on abortion. Organizations like NOW have very publicly attacked him for not being pro-choice enough. The other thing to consider is that we voted for Bush (and many other Republicans) largely on this issue. And while he had both houses of congress and all three branches of gov’t. completely in his favor for most of his presidency, he didn’t do a thing about that issue. But he did seize an unprecedented amount of power for his own administration for many, many other issues on his agenda. And if we’re really honest with ourselves, wouldn’t we say that those issues have been rather counter-productive? So I say, what is it? A means to an end. We have to accept the imperfections (to put it charitably) of a certain politician if he says he’s pro-life (not that he actually did anything about it). Yet we categorically label another if he’s willing to listen to different views – which is essentially what Obama has stated his position is. He's the only candidate I've heard who's honest enough to say that people from both sides have deeply held beliefs. While we don't agree with people who prioritize the "rights of a woman to choose" what will happen with her own body, it is a deeply held belief that cuts that person off from understanding our deeply held belief that "life starts at conception." Anyway, not to get into the abortion debate. I think you were just bringing it up to highlight your scepticism about Obama's faith. I just think that just because he can articulate what the other side's point of view is and is willing to listen, doesn't mean that he's not a "real Christian."
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